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WA-Sen: Two Polls Show Tighter Race

by: Crisitunity

Fri Oct 29, 2010 at 3:05 PM EDT


Univ. of Washington for KPLU (10/18-28, likely voters, 10/5-14 in parentheses):

Patty Murray (D): 51 (50)
Dino Rossi (R): 45 (42)
Undecided: 6 (8)
(MoE: ±4%)

SurveyUSA for KING (10/24-27, likely voters, 10/11-14 in parentheses):

Patty Murray (D): 47 (50)
Dino Rossi (R): 47 (47)
Undecided: 6 (3)
(MoE: ±3.8%)

Two new polls out today both show tightening, of either two or three points in the last two weeks, in the Washington Senate race. This race has become increasingly pivotal in the last few weeks as well... quite literally, in that Nate Silver calls it the Senate's entire pivot point for control -- where, in the simulations he runs where the GOP gets a 10-seat pickup, Washington is most frequently the last race across the line. (Of course, it's worth considering that as West Virginia seems to be getting better for Joe Manchin, there are increasing chances that Dems could lose Washington and keep the majority regardless of the Washington outcome, which is why overall odds of keeping the Senate are still hovering near 90%.)

What the closing of the gap means is quite debatable, though, depending on what method you use. For the Univ. of Washington, it's still a Murray victory, as she's already over 50 (at a point when, presumably, most people have sent in their ballots); her 8-point lead is down to 6. (They also find the reverse-enthusiasm-gap that seems unique in Washington, finding only a 4-pt edge among RVs.)

For SurveyUSA, it drops her into a tie, though. There are a couple odd things with the SurveyUSA poll, though; first, it's strange that undecideds would shoot up in the closing stages of the race, particularly since the state SoS office reports that a majority of ballots have been sent in. Maybe those who haven't sent ballots yet are still trying to decide; it's hard to gauge, SUSA doesn't include the vote breakdown among people who have already voted, which is an odd choice since they've done that in some other races, and it's even more relevant in the (almost) all-mail-in Washington. Also (h/t to Taniel for pointing this out), there's a steep dropoff in the Dem/GOP makeup of this sample from the last sample from two weeks ago: 33D-29R today, versus 36D-27R before. There's no party registration in Washington so this is just self-identification, but it's an abrupt switch.

One other consideration is the cellphone user gap, which has seemed particularly pronounced in Washington of all states (as seen by the wide split between live-calling Elway, UW, and CNN/Time, vs. auto-dialing SurveyUSA, Rasmussen, and PPP). I'm not a fan of mindlessly applying corrective formulas to poll data, but Nate's most recent post on the "house effects" generated by the different categories of pollsters may be instructive here: all robocallers have an R+2.0 lean, while live polls have a D+0.7 lean (although that may have to do simply with the sheer weight on the R-side of the spectrum brought by Rasmussen's massive volume of polling). In particular, SUSA has the most pronounced house effect this year, of R+4.0, even more than Rasmussen at R+2.1.

One major caveat, though: SurveyUSA used a live-caller overlay on this particular poll, and find that while the cellphone users they reached did tend to lean Democratic, it doesn't matter much for the final totals. They'd done this once before on a Washington poll over summer, and come to much the same conclusion. That seemed odd at the time and still does, as it would tend to contrast with recent Pew research that showed a 5-point difference between cellphone-inclusive and non-cellphone samples in the generic ballot. With that in mind, I'll leave it to you just how much special sauce you want to add to make sense of the results... or you can just average them out to 3, which is pretty close to where Murray's leaked internals (+4) from a few days ago put the race.

Crisitunity :: WA-Sen: Two Polls Show Tighter Race
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The U of W poll...
...was conducted over a 10 day span ending yesterday.

Forgive me
if this is a stupid question, but couldn't it be that the cell phone difference isn't detected if the sample is more Democratic already, which in this case it seems to be, even if it's less pronounced than last time?  

"I have never deliberately given anybody hell. I just tell the truth on the opposition-and they think it's hell."--President Harry Truman. President Obama, are you listening?

At least...
Its "undecided" in these polls, and not "Someone else/3rd party" like that "other" poll form yesterday :-)

SUSA does have "already voted" numbers in there
49/47 Rossi.  Not yet voted are 44/46 Murray.

That's an even *more* distrubing number... n/t


[ Parent ]
Beyond disturbing
And without a lot of knowledge of prior WA elections I can't see anythign so out of line in the tabs to make me cry "bad poll".

[ Parent ]
As a Washington voter who has looked at what counties have
highest rates of votes already in I say "bad poll".  

[ Parent ]
Hmmm
SUSA's crosstabs don't look totally wacky to me, except maybe women voters movign to Rossi.  I don't like this poll, kind of worries more than the rest today.

Not all polls are created equal
As Nate Silver said, Pew Research is used to working hard to getting all the people to reply, so, leaving out a portion of the electorate would no doubt affect their numbers a whole lot more.  However, if a firm (robo callers) is used to not getting a large number of respondents, they have always relied more on weighting, thus the lack of cell phones is not going to skew their numbers near as much.

It would make since that the human pollers that call cell phones would normally be much more accurate.  However during the 2009 governor elections, it was the robo polls that were much closer to correct, while the human polls were several points off.


Final 2006 senate poll average
underestimated Cantwell's margin by about 4%.

http://www.realclearpolitics.c...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...


Unknown: did the '06 tide increase D advantages?
or is it a function of underpolled constituencies?

[ Parent ]
It Was Almost Certainly The 2006 Tide.....
Fortunes are sinking fast for Murray.  The race is no better than 50-50 at this point.  Even I expected we'd win this one!

[ Parent ]
Well, then we will lose the Senate
Unless Manchin can pull through in West Virginia.  

[ Parent ]
Who is this "we"
that you speak of?

[ Parent ]
This is a Dem blog


[ Parent ]
Fortunes are sinking fast
Give me a break.  She's tied in two Republican friendly polls, and ahead by 6 in another.  

[ Parent ]
Dems also overperformed in 2008
Almost all polling in October '08 showed Gregoire either tied or up 1-2 points until the very last poll just a day or so before the election showed Gregoire up 6 points, and she won by 6.5%

Similarly, Obama's polling showed him winning by 12-17% in October, and he won by 17%, right at the upper bounds of the polling.

That, plus the '06 numbers, give me hope that Murray will overperform.

24, CA-14, previously DC-AL


[ Parent ]
Any idea what the flaw was?
I'm wodnering if we know how it was missed (underestimating D turnout, men or women voting in patterns different from polls, etc.)

This one is curious.  Washington has rejected Rossi so much it seems like they'd be done with him by now.


[ Parent ]
Let's give it a try for 2008
2008 CNN Exit polls:
Gregoire 53%, Rossi 47% (actual votes)

Exits:
Male: 48%
Female: 52%
18-29: 10%
30-44: 29%
45-64: 42%
65+: 19%

Males: 51/48 gregoire
Females: 56/43 gregoire
18-29: N/A
30-44: 52/47 Rossi
45-64: 53/44 gregoire
65+: 55/45 gregoire

SUSA's final 2008 poll: 50/48 greogire
Male: 48%
Female: 52%
18-34: 23%
35-49: 33%
50-64: 25%
65+ 19%

Males: 49/49 tie
Females: 52/47 Gregoire
18-34: 58/41 Rossi
35-49: 50/48 gregoire
50-64: 54/44 gregoire
65+: 57/42 greogire

So, in 2008, it looks like they got the turnout breakdowns about right for gender and age.  But it looks like the under-estiamted female support for Gregoire and also seemed to over-estimate the 18-34 crowds support for Rossi.  

Given the way female voting has been trending Rossi in 2010 in SUSA's recent polls, maybe SUSA's polling will have the same error as they did in 2008.  I didn't realize Gregoire did so well with women in 2008.  Anything close to that in 2010 and Murray holds.

Sources:
http://www.surveyusa.com/clien...

AND

CNN's election exit poll site.


[ Parent ]
Whoops
I did SUSA's second to last election poll, all the metrics are correct but I didn't compare their final poll.  Sorry.

[ Parent ]
It also happened in 2004
I think the final SUSA poll had Bush behind Kerry by like 4 points, but Kerry won the state by 8/9 points.

WA-07, 34 years old

[ Parent ]
Well
Maybe they are just flawed.  I just did a post about 2008 (above) and it saw SUSA finding more hospitable territory for the GOP with women than exit polls showed.  The same could probably explain Kerry in 2004 but I don't have the time for that at the moment.  

SUSA is very upfront in saying that Rossi is closing due support amongst women swinging his way, so we shall see if they make this an error yet again or if it finally bears out.


[ Parent ]
Like I said before...
I feel like I am in the twilight zone.  A few days ago, pollsters and prognositicators were saying that Murray was a more sure fire bet than Boxer.  How can the bottom drop out in a few days?  This is weird.

Am I missing something? Did anything happen in Washington to change the dynamics of the race that quickly?  Usually, that does not happen...

41 African-American Female DC
Taxation but no representation...


Per Nate Silver,
not only do Rasmussen and SUSA have Republican House effects, they've also been notoriously bad at polling Washington. This could be due to a prevalence of cell phones, vote by mail, or any of a number of other reasons.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.n...

As you'll see in the above, based on polling over the past ten years, both Rasmussen and SUSA have skewed Republican for Washington state by roughly 4.5 points. That's a big lean.

I think Murray pulls it out by 2-3 points.


[ Parent ]
Well, the national committees don't think so...
Neither has been pouring any real moneys into the race lately.

[ Parent ]
Not So. The DSCC made a major infusion in the Murray race Tuesday
putting $1 million into an anti-Rossi ad buy (source Kyung Song Seattle Times http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...

[ Parent ]
In all honesty
I think Rossi is going to win at this point. Not a take it to the bank type prediction, but a feeling thats been growing for a while inside me.

Living in WA state, Murray's campaign has been pathetic, IMO. Rossi is everywhere - signs, ads, billboards. I don't think I've seen a single Murray road side sign or billboard. Rossi has signs in Queen Anne Hill in Seattle, FFS!  WTF is she doing? She has lots of money - I hope she's spending it on GOTV or something.

It strikes me that Murray doesn't really know how to handle such an aggressive challenge well. Now, I love to hear some evidence from WA Dem insiders that I"m wrong, but I think Murray's campaign has been a big failure.

WA-07, 34 years old


Murray needs to get some yardsigns out PRONTO
They can really electrify an election!
http://www.theonion.com/articl...

[ Parent ]
Yeah, yeah
But I'm telling you, if you were low-info voter, you wouldn't even know Murray was running.

She's also run way fewer ads than Rossi and his allies, at least that I've seen.

WA-07, 34 years old


[ Parent ]
The ad war seems pretty even in SW WA
at least in the PDX market.... and Biden did after all campaign with Murray and Heck in Vancouver (just before delaying our flight to MSP for all of 10 minutes.)

[ Parent ]
The ad war is very even in the Seattle media market
I even saw Murray ads on Portland TV last weekend  

[ Parent ]
I feel saturated by ads...
and maybe Rossi does have an edge, but Murray has been airing plenty.

Radical or something, WA-07

[ Parent ]
I, too, live in Washington and Murray has signs everywhere
and her supporters have been out doorbelling like crazy. She has had active phoning every night in Pierce County for weeks working targetted GOTV after updating lists daily to delete the names of Ds who have already voted.

I drive from Lakewood to Tacoma's northend and see very few Rossi signs along my route.


[ Parent ]
I know newspaper endorsements do have the immpact they once
did but Murray has really cleaned up here even pulling in the Spokane paper. She has also really dominated the radio waves.

[ Parent ]
This race reminds of VA or MT in 06


WA-07, 34 years old

A narrow Democratic win
Aye.

[ Parent ]
Or is he saying a narrow GOP win?
The reverse... I hope not!

[ Parent ]
Yes I mean the reverse
Again, I could well be wrong, but if you forced me choose, I'd say Rossi will win at this point.

WA-07, 34 years old

[ Parent ]
Another thing from 2008 for SUSA
in their 10/26/08-10/27/08 polling, they showed Gregoire with a 5 point lead with women.  In their 10/30/08-11/2/08 polling they found Gregoire with a 12 point lead among women.  It played out that in exit polls Gregoire won women by 13.

I expect SUSA to backtrack and have a more "women-support-Murray" poll in their final poll.


Factor in the Rasmussen and SUSA house effects...
And consider that other pollsters are showing Sen. Murray with a mid-single digits lead, and you tell me what the standings are.

I think Murray is less likely to win than, say, Sen. Boxer or maybe even Gov. Manchin, but she's more likely to win than Sen. Reid, and I think Reid will win.

It's the goddamn cell phones. Kudos to SUSA for trying to poll cell phone-only LVs, but it doesn't sound like they got the results other pollsters who regularly call cell phones get.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native


Its women and cell phones
Cell phones probably underpolls younger voters mroe than old (duh), but the idea that women will be split so close between Rossi and Murray jsut seems laughable.  It could prove to be true, but it "seems" laughable right now.

[ Parent ]
It's pretty laughable
A bit of blowback from Rossi's team running a pretty creative, if absurd, ad featuring someone wearing tennis shoes stepping on the backs of a family: Sen. Murray won her Senate seat in 1992 as "a mom in tennis shoes". The ad was a reference to that image, and that image happens to appeal to moms in tennis shoes (of whom there are plenty in Washington, of course). It might have served to remind voters of Murray's "empowered woman" image.

Rossi being competitive among Washington women makes no sense and will be proven false when the ballots are in. He might still win, but it won't be because Murray doesn't do significantly better with women.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native


[ Parent ]
I do think the cell phone thing could be real
Personally, my wife and I both voted for Murray, but we are a cell phone only household.

WA-07, 34 years old

[ Parent ]
Agree with you except
that I think Murray is more likely to win than Manchin.

[ Parent ]
Is PPP doing WA again before the election? I hope so...
They had her winning early voters...

I think
Murray wins this one by about 5-6.  I think SUSA's polling has been notoriously bad in three states in particular, Washington, Minnesota, and California.  These are all states that will be going hard for the democrats this year, outside of perhaps individual house races.  

Murray's led in virtually all polling I've seen in the last month, with really only SUSA and Rassmussen giving Rossi a chance.  Rossi always seems to come close, but he's never gotten it done before.  I'll believe he'll win when I see it happen.

23, Male, Democrat, OH-13


I'm thinking closer than that
But it should be okay. Just.

[ Parent ]
I think Murray wins by 6-8. SURVEY USA polls of WA have been
so bad and I cannot believe that women are moving toward Rossi. Even my die-hard Republican insurance broker (like me a 60 year old female) voted for Murray the weekend her ballot came out. I am the only die-hard Democrat in my book group of senior women and nobody in the group voted for Rossi. He turned them off permanently when he was still in the state senate and opposed insurance coverage for contraception.

[ Parent ]
Whoa
I know we're not supposed to place too much stock in anecdotes, but that one is pretty powerful. Cheers.

20, center-left independent, Auckland Central resident, MD-05 voter, OR-01 native

[ Parent ]
There seem to be two types of commenters on this thread:
The Chicken Littles who believe a few bullshit Republican-skewing polls, and the people who have actually lived in Washington who know that, no matter how Republican some pundits want to believe this year is, there's no way in holy hell Dino Rossi ever wins a statewide race in Washington.

Actually, the UW poll looks pretty accurate to me. I say Murray by 4.  


I've never lived in Washington,
but I stand with the latter group. :)

[ Parent ]
The "I live in the state" card is condescending
unless you're actually working for the candidate, or are at least some part of the state party.

Remember Slade Gorton? He won after losing, in the same year Dukakis carried WA. Broke my heart, even though I was a Bonker backer that year.

I think Rossi would have been a lock this year against a weaker candidate -- e.g. if his second Gov race were this year, and not in '08.


[ Parent ]
I think Rossi might have had a chance against Gregoire this year
but he started the campaign with high negatives and never really erased them. I don't think the race would be as close as it is if the ad geared toward female voters calling him out for his strong anti-choice stance had begun running earlier. Female voters were late to engage this year and waiting until the last three weeks of the campaign to go after them seems unwise.

Slade Gordon won after losing one race. He also lost with some grace. Rossi is trying after losing two in a row. In a better year for Democrats, he wouldn't have had a prayer.  


[ Parent ]
The Washington Poll has been the most accurate in the state
both in terms of picking winners and identifying the margins of victory. ( R +.6 since 2006)

Elway has averaged a D +2.7 error rate. SURVEY USA is R +4.5 and Rasmussen is R +4.3 (per Nate Silver 538 races since 2000)


[ Parent ]
Even the Washington Poll
leans Republican? That's reassuring, as they're D+6.

[ Parent ]

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