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AR-Sen: The Reality of the Race

by: DavidNYC

Wed Jun 09, 2010 at 11:31 PM EDT


A lot of beltway pundits have said a lot of stupid beltway things about the result of the Arkansas senate runoff between Blanche Lincoln and Bill Halter. But at least a couple of outsider analysts have the right take. First is Ari Melber, who works for the Nation but also has a monthly column in the Politico. It's really worth reading his newest piece in full, but here's a good excerpt:

Take the senior administration aide who called Politico's Ben Smith on Wednesday morning, eager to declare that unions ""flushed"" ten million down the toilet in a ""pointless"" primary. That public servant is either disingenuous or clueless.

"If even half that total had been well-targeted and applied in key House races across this country,"the aide said, "that could have made a real difference in November."

This criticism misreads the entire insurgency on the left - and may cause more heartburn in November.

President Barack Obama's political team can wish that its base was focused on defending a governing majority. But labor has joined cause with anti-establishment, liberal groups that believe changing the membership of the party's congressional majority is as important as growing it.

After watching Democratic incumbents freeze out a litany of progressive proposals, from the famous public option to the Employee Free Choice Act - which Democratic politicians have decided to support through speeches, not floor votes - some allies are wising up.

Greg Sargent is on the money as well:

For labor, not doing anything was tantamount to losing.  Blanche Lincoln is terrible on issues important to labor. As long as she remains in the Senate, unions lose.

Yes, labor dumped $10 million on the effort. But they, you know, almost won. If anything, the closeness of the contest -- recall that Halter forced Lincoln into a runoff three weeks ago -- underscored that labor was right to undertake this effort. And putting aside that $10 million, unions are in some ways in a better position than they were before: It's a simple fact that other Dems will think longer and harder before crossing labor on issues that are dealbreakers for them.

If labor had never entered this race at all, they'd still be in a losing position with Lincoln in the Senate. This is an unbearably simple and obvious point, but the only way for labor to reverse this situation was to try to replace her with someone better on their issues. They couldn't do this, of course, without running the risk of losing. Doing nothing would have amounted to a loss, anyway -- with no chance of ever winning. They were absolutely right to give it a shot. The alternative was much worse.

I'll add a final thought, which is that for all the claims that DC loves to play the "expectations game," the only thing that beltway bobbleheads understand is winning and losing. Smart baseball analysts know that good teams don't win many close games - they win a lot of blowouts, because narrow wins are more a product of luck than skill. But in the cloistered minds of most tradmed pundits, only the won-lost record matters: you win, you're golden, you lose, you suck - no matter how close the margin. This, of course, is foolish, and the establishment ignores Lincoln's tight escape at its peril.

DavidNYC :: AR-Sen: The Reality of the Race
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Like I said in my diary
I think that since Halter, even if he had won now, would've still likely lost in November (even if by not as wide a margin as Lincoln) the amount of energy and enthusiasm invested in that race was somewhat foolish itself.

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24, Male, Democrat, NM-01, Chairman of the Atheist Caucus, and Majority Leader of the "Going to Hell" caucus!


As I said in a number of posts
it was well worth it.  It was not just about this race, but future races where Democrats might be tempted to double-cross labor.  They will have to think twice now, seeing how she was forced into a runoff, an election she barely won.  And it moved Lincoln to the left, even if temporarily, on derivatives.  

[ Parent ]
I think you can make a strong argument
For each side on this.

[ Parent ]
The activism on banks is continuing
Lincoln Keeps Pressure on Banks

If we get a bill that reins in banking excesses more because of Halter's campaign, that'll be worth more than the $10 million the unions spent. Moreover, it'll be good politics for the Democratic Party and probably also for whichever Republicans vote for it, because I don't think banks are popular among the Republican rank and file.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
Enthusiasm follows opportunities
What else is there in terms of Dem primaries in 2010?  CO-SEN, OH-SEN and NC-SEN didn't present such a clear potential contrast.  PA-SEN -- where the insurgent one -- was without labor's or significant netroots backing, given how effectively Specter neutralized the institutional players through savvy voting.

[ Parent ]
("won," not "one") nt


[ Parent ]
Smart comment by Adam, and it's the one thing that makes pushing Halter defensible......
Looking at AR-Sen(D) in a vacuum, it really wasn't very smart since we're likely to lose this seat to a strongly anti-labor Republican in November no matter who won.  And getting pro-labor candidates elected to office is what matters.

But Adam's point is the one thing that leaves me ambivalent, the fact that labor needed some electoral avenue to send its message, and while AR-Sen wasn't ideal it was the best of the available options.

And yeah, PA-Sen would have been the next best option except that Specter wasn't as objectionable to labor as Lincoln was.

But ultimately AR-Sen was a gamble, and one I think they lost.  I don't think it was a win-win for labor, I think they needed to get Halter over the top.  That they didn't leaves them with the status quo ante, IMO.  I don't think other Democrats are so scared now, especially since Lincoln was expected to lose and still won.

That said, I don't think labor is any worse off, either, except that they spent $10 million in a losing cause, but elections are always gambles where spending could be a losing cause so that's neither here nor there, really.

I do think the "senior White House official" who kept opening his big fat mouth was a fucking moron.  Keep those comments in-house and talk nice to the press.  Don't antagonize your own friends in public.  And regarding the substance of the complaint that the $10 million could've been spent elsewhere, see my comment above about spending in elections always being a gamble.  There's never a guarantee, you just make your best guesses on where you'll be effective and roll the dice there.  That Halter got so close just proves that this was NOT a BAD gamble at all.  A bad gamble is when you throw money into a cause that was lost from the start, and AR-Sen(D) was never that.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
Ok, I take your point
And I agree with DCCyclone's point above mine, that for the unions to win something out of it, they needed to win.

Though, there was an inherent risk to the unions even if Halter had won, and that would be his rhetoric on unions and the issues the unions support (from everything I've seen about Halter, the real differentiation between him and Lincoln was support for the public option, I haven't seen him be all that great on anything else involving the unions). Granted, Lincoln is, in a jam, poor on issues of unionization and whatnot (as is Mark Pryor), but by spending all that money, winning, and then getting a knife put in, the unions lose more credibility with its own membership and hurts their credibility when getting involved in other races.

That said, I don't really have a problem with the unions for trying to get better candidates for them elected (hell, I hope that we can get some much needed changes to make it easier to join unions) nor do I really find fault with the netroots for being enthusiastic about Halter. Where I do get a bit peeved is in the electability argument and in the temper tantrums involved in the president and the party establishment itself backing an incumbent senator in good standing with the party (in a state that is trending away from the Democrats no less). Kos's posturing the other day about why the White House and the Party establishment being foolish for backing Lincoln is itself foolish on the grounds that it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the party system and puts unreasonable expectations on the party apparatus (Kos can be very savvy when it comes to political issues, but sometimes he can go way overboard).

Politics and Other Random Topics

24, Male, Democrat, NM-01, Chairman of the Atheist Caucus, and Majority Leader of the "Going to Hell" caucus!


[ Parent ]
Bob Smith
The basic rule is that unless it's Bob Smith, the President will support an incumbent Senator in a primary.  (Is there a second exception?)  What distinguished Arkansas from PA -- if this matters -- is that Obama cut a fresh ad for Lincoln, as opposed to the excerpts from a fall fundraiser which Specter used for his race.

[ Parent ]
Specter is a special case though
He was also a Republican incumbent for 30 years, while the White House made the correct decision to cut the deal to get Specter to defect, it's also the case that the White House had good reason to be skeptical of whether Specter would continue to be an asset to their agenda (and there was good reason to believe that Specter might not have won but Sestak might have).

Those conditions aren't really there in Arkansas, as Halter was still losing to Boozman by wide margins (better is only good if it puts you in striking distance) and it's not all that clear that Halter would be any less of a pain in the ass to the White House than Lincoln anyways (who was, unlike Specter, first elected as a Democrat anyways).

Politics and Other Random Topics

24, Male, Democrat, NM-01, Chairman of the Atheist Caucus, and Majority Leader of the "Going to Hell" caucus!


[ Parent ]
Why not Bob Smith?
Refresh our memories, please. I remember him as a hard right Senator from New Hampshire.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
Briefly left the GOP ...
... to run as an independent "taxpayer rights" candidate for President in 2000.

[ Parent ]
Only incumbent, ass-protecting hacks
would find fault in spending money to support your positions.

It's one of those disconnects between political hacks and proponents of political change.  The hacks will never understand those who actually do things because they believe in them.

Halter's challenge should be viewed in the context of Sestak's too.  It was a great use of money to get a better candidate in one place, and almost succeed in another.

The institutional hacks don't like anybody challenging incumbents.  Well boo-hoo, stop doing such a crappy job then.


What they're not understanding
As much as we criticize the Tea Party (and they're certainly worthy of criticism), they've clearly accomplished something.  Republican incumbents are now scared of getting "teabagged" by a primary challenge from the right.  Imagine if the Republican Party weren't worried about Tea Party challenges.  Think more Republicans would be willing to be bipartisan and go along with some Democratic measures?  Probably.  But right now, they're all scared shitless of getting primaried, so they're essentially behaving the way the teabaggers want them to.  Even though, off the top of my head, no Republican incumbent has actually lost to a teabagging insurgent, their point has been made.

And that's the greater point here.  Win or lose, Halter's primary challenge to Lincoln -- and the money that came with it -- sent a message that labor wasn't about to effectively rubberstamp the actions of the Democratic majority by supporting incumbents who vote against labor on important issues.

And, in fact, I think Lincoln was the perfect incumbent to challenge to make this point.  Lincoln is probably going to lose in November either way, so if Halter had won the primary and then lost the general election, nobody could have plausibly said that a labor-backed challenge cost the Democrats a seat and put a conservative Republican in the Senate.  Had labor backed a primary challenge in a seat we were likely going to hold with the incumbent in there, there would have been a lot more to lose.

26, white male, TX-24, liberal-leaning independent


Incumbents who have lost to teabaggers
Just Bob Bennett, but 90% chance Bob Inglis will too in 2 weeks.

21, dude, RI-01 (registered) IL-01 (college)
please help Japan. click "donate funds" in upper right and then "Japan Earthquake and Pacific Tsunami." http://www.redcross.org/


[ Parent ]
Not counting Bob Bennett
I think there's a good chance that he would have won a primary.  In any case, though, Republicans were changing their behavior because of the Tea Party threat from the right even before Bennett lost.

26, white male, TX-24, liberal-leaning independent

[ Parent ]
The House is different.
A couple of GOP House incumbents have been getting teabagged for the last few cycles as a matter of course - we just didn't call it "teabagging" until after Obama was elected and the term was coined. TN-01, UT-03, and MD-01 all come to mind. SC-04 is just par for the course.

His point is that no GOP Senator or Governor has been successfully teabagged yet (Bennett doesn't count because it was a convention), but they're all scared shitless of the teabaggers because Fox News is broadcasting their demands 24-7-365. Part of this might also be a psychological difference between Republicans and Democrats, but the point is that both bases are grumbling - it's just that Dems have been at war with their own base for so long, they're used to blowing us off, while the establishment GOP has only recently been forced into a war with its base and just seems overwhelmed to be fighting the very same zombie hordes it created 25 years ago.  


[ Parent ]
they've still got McCain/Hayworth this year.
And, arguably, Linda McMahon teabagged Rob Simmons already.

[ Parent ]
I dont think any of us could have guessed
they would have chose tea-baggers, like really?  It's why it pays to be sexually liberal, or at the least, knowledgeable...

I'll probably be a poli sci prof at some point in my life and when I teach about the tea-baggers, I'll just show them the clip from Maddow where she first introduces us to the tea-baggers on her show, for 7 minutes, with plenty of jokes through-out, and she literally had to stop and go, quiet on the set everyone, everyone is laughing and I can barely make it through this myself.

Oh the tea-baggers....  So many gifts they have given us.  I really cant help but feel like an elitist when talking about them; how do you not look down at a group of people so moronic that they called themselves tea-baggers?  They will literally be laughed at by every college student who gets to learn about them someday.  (Unless people stop tea-bagging drunk passed out people, which seems unlikely.)  


[ Parent ]
Could this be partly generational or/and regional?
Neither my girlfriend nor I had heard of the sexual meaning of "teabagging" before the Tea Party started up.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
probably generational
unless you were born after 1985-ish.

21, dude, RI-01 (registered) IL-01 (college)
please help Japan. click "donate funds" in upper right and then "Japan Earthquake and Pacific Tsunami." http://www.redcross.org/


[ Parent ]
I was born in 1965
and she was born in 1971.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
Exactly on your last point
It's easy to get the feeling that even if the margin of victory was just 200 votes, if Lincoln won, the entire race would be declared a loss for labor and progressive activists. In reality, if labor could push a challenger to a Senate incumbent to a 49% vote total in a state like Arkansas with the 2nd lowest union membership in the country, then certainly candidates should be careful elsewhere, particularly in states with more liberal Democratic constituencies. The message was sent either way. In fact, everyone has always known that both Halter and Lincoln would likely lose in November. Therefore, it's difficult to say that this race was about getting a candidate elected.

60,000 fewer voted in the runoff than in the pirmary
That's a signigicant dropoff. That should be analyzed by someone smarter than me to figure out what happened here.

Probably most were Morrison voters


[ Parent ]
It was about 20%
Pollster.com didn't seem to note that it was significant.  There's always a drop off.

[ Parent ]
Heh, all it takes is making a couple of columns, putting numbers in them
and moving your eyes left to right.  I bet you can do that!  ;)

[ Parent ]
Remind Me, How Much Money Was Flushed Away on Arlen Specter?


They got his unconditional vote on HCR
That, in itself, was well worth anything they spent on Specter.

Politics and Other Random Topics

24, Male, Democrat, NM-01, Chairman of the Atheist Caucus, and Majority Leader of the "Going to Hell" caucus!


[ Parent ]
Not only that, but people don't realize Specter himself RAISED the DSCC money spent on him......
The DSCC didn't spend money on Specter that would be available without his raising it, so it was a wash.  And yes, we got his unconditional support on everything in the 111th Congress, which was a pretty good deal.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10

[ Parent ]
Beltway Democrats are not getting the hint

that their base is in fact moving left.  Lots of excitement that the Republican base is moving right/reactionary, but somehow they want to believe in 'balance' or something like that and timidity of the Democratic base.

More exactly, 'social issues' are something of a lost cause and so is the question of tax cuts versus government programs.  The evolution seems to be to what is the case in western Europe: Democrats seem to be trending/maturing into support of social democracy proper, Republicans and conservaDems (fading in numbers) are increasingly cleanly and clearly corporatist.

The current batch of Democrats in Congress and the White House has done what lay in their capacity to do- and their election mandate.  They will only do more if and when their most conservative members are removed and a roughly equivalent number of substantially more liberal ones are elected.


That's because the base is NOT moving left......
Halter lost.  For all the noise and scrum, he lost.  For all of Lincoln's ideological apostasy and poor general election polling, she still won, even against a well-funded sitting statewide elected official.

The "base" of the Democratic Party is multidimensional, and the affluent white male netroots are just one dimension of it.  Black voters in Arkansas decided, for probably differing and multidimensional reasons, Lincoln was the better choice.  They're a big part of the base, too, and not many of them are in the netroots.  Other parts of the Democratic base also disagreed with Halter fans on Tuesday.

The penultimate reality in baseball and elections alike is that winning isn't everything, it's the only thing...same as in football.

I'm a liberal, and I would like the entire country to move further left than it is today, and that movement is really happening.  But it's happening slowly, and the Democratic Party is constrained by that.

43, male, Indian-American, Democrat, VA-10


[ Parent ]
I didn't say it was simple
or straightforward.  I see the Lincoln/Halter result as conceptually the same as the Creigh Deeds win in the Virginia governor primary over Jerry Moran.  A last run by conservative Democrats, permitted on benefit of the doubt, and likely to end in a predictably dismal fashion.

There are lots of complicators involved but the essential ideas are that (a) there are viable moderate/liberal candidacies in several Southern states now, with more to come, and (b) the conservative Democrats being challenged are calling in all favors, standing on and being held to account for their accomplishments or lack thereof.

I'm not saying that many people are changing their minds per se.  What is happening that 6-8% of the national electorate that participates in one Presidential election in dies before the next one.  These days that's essentially Silent Generationers.  We're generally replacing voters age 75 with voters age 30.  That's where the net Modern/liberal trend really is.  The public appearance of shift lies in what voters in their forties and fifties perceive and decide has changed.  The people disappearing from the electorate are generally people with pre-1968 values/views, which includes the bulk of the supporters of conservative Democrats.  

I don't think much of anyone knows for sure which candidate is the better for themselves.  It's always a plausibility argument, not a certainty claim.  Lincoln survived on Tuesday on claims that she would help the Obama agenda along.  Not that anyone is particularly clear on what that is/means, or whether that still has any real meaning by the time November 2 rolls around.  That agenda is basically down to the financial reform bill and possibly (though not likely) an immigration reform bill.

After those there really aren't any more fixes compatible with the status quo left.  Everything major after this is pretty much new ground, a living in a different, newer, long awaited order.


[ Parent ]
Um
"A last run by conservative Democrats, permitted on benefit of the doubt, and likely to end in a predictably dismal fashion."

"the conservative Democrats being challenged are calling in all favors, standing on and being held to account for their accomplishments or lack thereof."

"The people disappearing from the electorate are generally people with pre-1968 values/views, which includes the bulk of the supporters of conservative Democrats."

Comments like that display either a simple misunderstanding of Southern Democrats, or a true ignorance of the South.

It's stuff like this, especially the "pre-1968" remark, that really discredit otherwise worthwhile comments.

You're leaving out the hundreds of Democrats in local offices, state legislators, and other elected official that would certainly consider themselves to be Conservative Democrats. I guess because it doesn't fit in with your argument.

I will say this, and you can believe it whether you want to or not, but if it were not for the Conservative Democrats that so many on the left bash on a constant basis, there would be no Democratic majority.

Conservative Democrats and liberal Democrats might not agree on every issue, and even within each wing of the party, there are different opinions. However, without each other we'll allow a Republican majority to takeover that will be much worse.


[ Parent ]
Think both sides are making too big a deal of it
Yes, it looks like a waste of money but the reasons for doing it are also very valid. At the end of the day the result here won't make a damn difference in November. Point made by labor, time to move on.

Bingo!
And unions have a lot more ability to spend their dough now compared to past cycles as well.

Good ole 24/7 news cycle.


[ Parent ]
labor announced they won't be helping in Lincoln
in the general campaign, and that's their right.
SEIU officials: Blanche Lincoln should forget about our support in general election
But now if Lincoln loses in Nov, unions (and progressives to some degree) will be looked at as the scapegoats for the loss by those beltway Dem's.
And even by the White House as well. Robert Gibbs this morning didn't really walk back the "flushed $10 million of their members' money down the toilet" remark by an anonymous WH person. Gibbs merely echoed that sentiment in a slightly less confrontational manner.
Gee, I wonder who it could have been in the WH who made that original comment.

Of course.
Because Democratic politicians, the media, and, hell, even quite a few members of the Democratic base love to scapegoat the base for demanding policy, not getting excited over crappy candidates, etc.  My response to these people: "Fuck you."

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.

[ Parent ]
I wonder if Chuck Schumer still reads this blog
and if he does, if any of this is sinking in . . .

26, Male, Democrat, TX-26

Schumer knows...
But, he's not in charge of the DSCC anymore...  

[ Parent ]
What exactly should be sinking in?
Or more importantly, what is Schumer supposed to do about it?

[ Parent ]
Well I disagree with almost the entire post
Witness this quote:

"But labor has joined cause with anti-establishment, liberal groups that believe changing the membership of the party's congressional majority is as important as growing it."  

If both Lincoln and Halter were going to lose, how was anything they did in Arkansas going to change the majority except to make it more Republican or 0 impact.

And this quote:

"It's a simple fact that other Dems will think longer and harder before crossing labor on issues that are dealbreakers for them."

Shall I assume EFCA will now pass in landslides in both houses now that Dems are thinking longer and harder before crossing unions?  I didn't think so.

And this quote:

"Smart baseball analysts know that good teams don't win many close games"

I don't even know what to make of this statement or where its even sourced from.  I've never heard a pundit say good teams don't win close games.  Its universally thought that good teams win close games.  Its not like the world series has a lot of 10-0 games each year.

And this quote:

"Take the senior administration aide who called Politico's Ben Smith on Wednesday morning, eager to declare that unions ""flushed"" ten million down the toilet in a ""pointless"" primary. That public servant is either disingenuous or clueless. "

Wouldn't the $10M been better spent defeating all of the blue dogs that voted against HCR and EFCA in higher union % districts?  This would thereby possibly effecting an actual change, rather than an assumed, presumptive change (the one I'm betting my life savings won't come to pass).


i think rdw72777 has it right here
brilliant post.  i disagree with the "fewer, better dems" strategy anyway - but this race did seem to be a poor use of limited resources.

right now - it looks like purist GOPers may very well cost themselves the majority in both chambers by nominating toomey, paul, rubio, and angle.  some will win, but not all.

if they had nominated tea party candidates in IL, DE, and WA, they would be out of the running completely for the majority.

we hold the majority with tester, nelson, landrieu, bayh, webb & lincoln and we knew they would vote for the right majority leader and for maybe 70% of dem priorities.  labor can go after every one of them, arguing that they need to toe the line better, and chances are - we will lose those seats.

furthermore - from a governing perspective - a more resolute right-wing extreme GOP and a more left-wing extreme demcoratic party in the senate is a recipe for a senate that will get even less done, and will spend even more time calling each other names.

 


[ Parent ]
Your last paragraph
Is a concept I think is often overlooked.  So much has gotten done this Congress for D priotrities, I just don;'t understand some of the haterade.  As a prty, we should be damn proud of what was accomplished in a hort 2 year Congress.

D majroities will be decreased after this cycle, though I'm very optimistic they won't be that bad and D's def hold majorities.  

Passing the next wave of legislation will just become harder, and certain things won't move.  Its sad, but so much got done this cycle its not even funny.

If unemployment were 5% the progrssive movement would be cheering.  I think the unemployment/economic picture is so gloomy it spills emotions over into unrelated areas sometimes.


[ Parent ]
Surely Halter will have new races in the future


When this happens in the GOP
SSP just links to that 'cat fud' Far Side comic. I know you all think that conservative ideas are beneath serious consideration, but there's a pretty obvious double standard that you're applying here.

.
I happen to like plenty of Republican ideas. However, this site is not for ideological debate... it is for election coverage.  

21, Conservative Gay Democrat, NM-2 (Childhood) TX-10 (Home) TX-23 (School);   DKos: wwmiv.

[ Parent ]
Not necessarily
I'd compare the Halter challenge to one of the challenges of Don Young -- even though the challenger is less centrist, the incumbent is still weaker for some reason or another.

The best example of reverse cat fud I can think of is the challenge to the Dem congressman in Utah by the lesbian (black?) (gender studies?) ex-Mormon professor from the left. Based on just that alone, I think she'd make a good congresswoman, probably, but would also be absolutely unelectable in Utah.

überliberal Democrat, male, OH-12 (college), NJ-09 ("home"), Mets, Jets


[ Parent ]
In the case of this diary
the appropriate reference is to popcorn. It is as far as I can tell, a pure horse race diary about an internal D fight.

And I can understand Rs cooking a lot of popcorn w/r/t the AR-Sen D primary.

While this is a progressive blog, discussions about issues that do not reference the horse race are discouraged.


[ Parent ]
Democratic blog
Democratic double standard.  And I checked Redstate to see what their "mock Dems over AR-Sen" post would be and either didnt find one or got pre-occupied and just didnt scroll down far enough.

[ Parent ]
To google for that
I used the following search

halter lincoln site:redstate.com

and came up with

http://www.redstate.com/moe_la...


[ Parent ]
One term Senator.
Boozman will only last - at most - two terms. His first reelection campaign will coincide with the 2016 Presidential election. If Democrats nominate a southerner who can carry Arkansas(maybe Hillary will run again) Boozman is toast. Remember: Tim Hutchison only got one term.  

21, Conservative Gay Democrat, NM-2 (Childhood) TX-10 (Home) TX-23 (School);   DKos: wwmiv.

Nope
Boozman will have the seat for as long as he wants it.  Arkansas is for all intents and purposes a Solid R state now at the federal level, a la Alabama or Tennessee.  

Pryor's history in 2014 too, which will almost certainly be a republican year.  

23, Male, Democrat, OH-13


[ Parent ]
I agree on Boozman
AR is long gone for Federal races.  

I do think Pryor has a fighting chance in 2014 though.  The legacy of his name can help him, and I'm not sure the remaining Republicans currently have the heft to make him so easily beatable.  I think we'll know more after the 201 GE though.


[ Parent ]
.
Tennessee is the wrong example to use. Ford almost won, remember? I'd say that Arkansas is more along the lines of Louisiana, Tennessee, Florida, and Georgia in that Dems have a fighting chance to win statewide. In fact, I'd separate southern states in to five tiers:

1) Dem Advantage: North Carolina.
2) Tossup: Virginia.
3) Rep Advantage: Louisiana, Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, and Georgia.
4) Slightly larger Rep Advantage: Texas
5) Dem Screwed: Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina.

21, Conservative Gay Democrat, NM-2 (Childhood) TX-10 (Home) TX-23 (School);   DKos: wwmiv.


[ Parent ]
I think you're putting up a general rule of thumb
And if so, I disagree significantly.

Ignoring the great importance of specific candidates, I would suggest the following for Senate races, including West Virginia and the other Boarder States except for Maryland and Delaware:

Lean Dem: West Virginia
Tossup: Virginia, North Carolina
Slight Republican Lean: Florida, Missouri
Strong Republican Lean: Georgia, Kentucky, Texas
Solid Republican: Tennessee (yeah, despite your point), Louisiana (doubtful a Democrat has a chance anymore), Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Oklahoma

But again, candidates count.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
North Carolina is not fertile Republican territory.
On the Border States:

West Virgina has a massively strong Democratic Lean, and Kentucky a slightly smaller lean. Missouri is at best a tossup for both parties. Carnahan running even in Rasmussen polling ring a bell? Oklahoma will never elect a Democrat statewide for a federal office again until OKC enters a period of boom growth.

One thing you seem to forget about North Carolina is the speed at which Charlotte and Raleigh are growing. As that growth continues, North Carolina will get further and further out of reach for Republicans.

Tennessee and Louisiana are not and won't be as strongly Republican as MS, AL, and SC for a very long long time.

21, Conservative Gay Democrat, NM-2 (Childhood) TX-10 (Home) TX-23 (School);   DKos: wwmiv.


[ Parent ]
How about if we break this down?
Given an open U.S. Senate seat and generic candidates, how do you rate these states? I would give a generic Democrat no chance against a generic Republican in Louisiana, Tennessee, or Kentucky. You mean to tell me you would? On what evidence?

The idea that there is a slight Democratic lean in Kentucky for a Senate seat is laughable! There's such a strong Republican lean that Bunning was able to eke out a victory last time! And it's only because of that strong lean that we can't be sure as extremist a candidate as Paul will lose.

Gubernatorial elections are a different story.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
Democrats are not Doomed in the South
Why don't you go back and look at my words. Maybe you'll realize that I do think that Republicans have the advantage in both Tennessee and Louisiana (I did write "Republican Advantage")... I just don't think that they are on the same level of Republican dominance as Alabama and Mississippi!

As for Kentucky, do you think Paul would stand a ghost of a chance in Kentucky in ANY political atmosphere less favorable to Republican candidates than current? The fact that the race is so damn close even in this "Democrats are DOOOOMED" narrative that is going on is very telling about where Kentucky stands in relation to other southern states.

21, Conservative Gay Democrat, NM-2 (Childhood) TX-10 (Home) TX-23 (School);   DKos: wwmiv.


[ Parent ]
I never said Democrats don't have a chance
I said that a GENERIC Democrat has no chance to defeat a GENERIC Republican in several Southern states. And so far, you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. And I continue to find your ratings laughable, on the basis that I would consider them to be ratings of a generic Democrat vs. a generic Republican in an open seat.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
Using your Terminology
Solid Democrat: West Virginia
Strong Lean Democrat: North Carolina
Slight Lean Democrat: Kentucky

Tossup: Virginia, Missouri

Slight Lean Republican: none
Strong Lean Republican: Louisiana, Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, Georgia
Solid Republican: Texas
Republican Stronghold: Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina

I'd also like to point out that these ratings are only in terms of federal congressional races, not presidential contests. The only southern state that non-southern Democrats will continue to be competitive in is Missouri. North Carolina will revert back to Republicans in 2012, but will continue after that to move towards the Democratic candidate as a result of population growth in Charlotte and Raleigh.

21, Conservative Gay Democrat, NM-2 (Childhood) TX-10 (Home) TX-23 (School);   DKos: wwmiv.


[ Parent ]
If you're talking about House races
that's a different story, and in that case, we have to include black-majority districts.

If you're talking about Senate races, my comments stand.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!"
--  Will Rogers  


[ Parent ]
What's the Message If You Can't Win The Seat?
I can understand an organization spending $10 million to replace a sitting representative with one more sympathetic to that organizations views. But it seems to me to be a very poor use of funds to defeat the incumbent in a primary when both candidates are likely to lose in the general anyway. It would be a different situation if the seat were a "safe" one for the primary winner, but Arkansas clearly isn't in that category.

It seems to me that the resources would have been far better spent on, say, actually organizing more people for labor and growing their membership which would increase their political clout. Instead, labor blew a lot of cash and the seat will still go to someone hostile to their interests--and that would have likely been the case regardless of who won the primary (except that labor would have blown even more money in the general, so maybe it's good for them that Lincoln won).

Others have posted that it sends a signal that the Democratic base is moving to the left. But the elections of 2006 and 2008 should show that the base isn't enough to win or even retain seats; Rove's "rely on the base" strategy eventually failed (when their terror-scare tactics wore off) and left too many in the center ready to change their votes. Moving a party puts seats at risk unless enough of the public moves too. Move the public, and the parties have to follow if they want to win elections. But the converse is not true.

The strategy here eludes me.


The message is that they're not affraid
to take on those who don't support their issues.  I think that's a pretty damn powerful message.  It's not about winnng the seat, per se.  It's about using the stick part of carrot and stick.  It's about showing that they can and will flex their muscles when required.  And as others pointed out, they didn't win, but they did hold her to a bare majority of a run-off in the 2nd least unionized state in America.

The money was part of their political arm.  They collect it for this purpose.  And it's funny you should mention organizing.  Lincoln is one of the biggest road blocks to the Employee Free Choice Act, which would have made it easy for people to orgnaize and form unions.  It's really not surprising labor spent money to try and take her down.


[ Parent ]
Again, What's The Practical Result?
OK, so labor isn't afraid to take on people who don't support their issues. But how did their involvement in the Arkansas primary help them actually advance their issues? As I wrote above, I could see the strategy if their candidate had a shot at winning the seat. But they're almost certainly going to get a senator who is hostile to their interests instead, which leaves them in no better political position and $10 million poorer.

Yes, Lincoln was against EFCA, which is important to union organizers. But even if Halter had won the primary, the next senator would likely be against EFCA. So again, what is the practical effect of spending $10 million to win a primary if the ultimate political goal isn't moved forward? If Arkansas is the 2nd least unionized state in America, it's unlikely that someone will get elected statewide who supports EFCA unless there's more grassroots support for labor. Wouldn't it be better to spend more money for that purpose? And until that's achieved, isn't the prospect of an EFCA-supporting senator very remote?

Again, I don't see the point of flexing one's muscles if nothing practical is achieved. The practical effects here have not been delineated, at least to my satisfaction, so the strategy still eludes me.


[ Parent ]
You are too focused on Arkansas.
You're missing the bigger picture.  Labor's actions said to ALL Democrats that they will come in and work against those who work against Labor interests.  That resonates.  Is Lincoln suddenly a Labor convert?  No.  Of course not.  But down the line, when a tough vote comes up or a Labor issue needs addressing, they can point to Arkansas as an example of what can happen.  Yes, Loncoln won, but it wasn't easy.  No one wants to go through that.  Additionally, interest groups lose power if they don't challenge those who challenge them.  Now their threats of a challenge carry a little more weight.

This has nothing to do with Novemeber.  This has everything to do with the party and those who represent it in Congress.


[ Parent ]
Why Not Target Those Representatives, Then?
If the point is to pressure sitting representatives who are not in lost seats, then why not target them directly? If they're vulnerable to a primary (perhaps because they're more conservative than their constituency), then fund a primary challenger in that race. They might actually be able to replace that person, or move the position of someone who will still be in the next session of Congress.

It's an empirical question, but it seems to me that many representatives are in safe seats and probably won't care what happened in the Arkansas primary (and many of them probably support labor issues anyway). If there are a handful vulnerable to a primary challenge and who could be influenced to change their positions, then putting $10 million into a lost seat seems to be an awfully indirect way to make a point. Could labor find no sitting Democrat who might be subject to a primary challenge and still have at least a decent shot at surviving the general election whoever won the primary? I think that would have had a far greater impact.

"Additionally, interest groups lose power if they don't challenge those who challenge them.  Now their threats of a challenge carry a little more weight."

Interests groups may have more power within the party by mounting such challenges. But they have no power if they end up in the minority party. Internal party politics are important, but larger strategic issues have to be considered as well.


[ Parent ]
dsimon
You and I should grab a beer lol.

I just dont get it either.  If you want to prove the point, go after those reps directly that voted against HCR and not just a single Senator who is already going to lose..

At the end of the day, Lincoln did win, she and no other Dems are going to change their ways, and Boozman will win in AR.

To me it was all just a publicity stunt.  AR was chosen because it was cheap.  Just like Nebraska or the Dakotas would have been chosen if Lincoln wasn't up this cycle.

The SEIU got great mileage out of this.  Sadly, the result is in fact meaningless since I've not heard one member of Congress claiming to change their position to YES on EFCA as a result of this supposed fear of double-crossing the unions.


[ Parent ]
Yes, it was a cheap state.
But Lincoln was a huge block to Labor's priorities in the Senate, namely the EFCA.  So I'm confused as to why you think they have just picked someone at random.

This wasn't solely about HCR.  There were other issues at play.

Sadly, the result is in fact meaningless since I've not heard one member of Congress claiming to change their position to YES on EFCA as a result of this supposed fear of double-crossing the unions.  

I'd imagine you're the only one who thought that the next day the sun would come out and everything Labor wants would be passed.  This is a process.


[ Parent ]
Considering 2010 projections
of losses of seats in both houses of Congress, there's no time for EFCA passage to be a process.  Its now or never, or at least a very very long time.

[ Parent ]
I'm also confused
Why would a senator from a non-union state need to toe the line so much on union issues.

Let's not forget some other things.  She may be against HCR and EFCA, but she has voted with some other priorities like unemplyment extensions, minimum wage increases.

She is not pure evil.


[ Parent ]
She doesnt need to filibuster against them though


[ Parent ]
I should add
that we have the biggest Congressional majorities a party has seen in a long while, so simply adding more Democrats or protecting the majority obviously isn't enough.

[ Parent ]
Where Did The Majority Come From?
Perhaps the reason Democrats have the majorities they do is that a lot of the representatives are not very liberal. Pushing representatives to the left without an accompanying move in public sentiment may result in smaller majorities, or a loss of those majorities.

I'm not saying that Democrats should abandon principles just for the sake of staying in power. But we should recognize that more liberal Democrats will have a far harder time in many Democratic-held seats, so pushing such candidates may have consequences. Whether that's a risk we should be willing to take is arguable.


[ Parent ]
Making an example.
And sending the message that labor should not be taken for granted: "You screw us, we'll come after you.  We won't help you if you win the primary."

Follow the elections in Georgia at the 2010 Georgia Race Tracker.

[ Parent ]
Again I'll re-iterate
Unions may have money, but they've been unable to deliver much in recent cycles.  Unions were dismal at turning out their voters for the D candidates in 2000, 2002 and 2004. 2006 was a little better.  2008 was an anomaly and every D constituency turned out their voters.  

I expect 2010 to be close to 2004 in terms of unions turning out their voters for D candidates.


[ Parent ]
Has Obama just lost 2012?
That White House aide pissed off the unions.

Are the unions going to turn on Obama now?  By refusing to support his reelection campaign, or having someone primary him?  I really wonder if this WH aide comment just lost Obama's reelection campaign.


They already had a meeting and
kissed and made up.

[ Parent ]
meeting?
When did that happen?

[ Parent ]
Linky:
http://voices.washingtonpost.c...

This morning AFL-CIO's political team meet with WH officals.


[ Parent ]
Greatest over-reaction EVER!
Are you Tekzilla in disguise?

[ Parent ]

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